I have decided that I need to get my hands on a copy of Joanna Russ’s How to Suppress Women’s Writing.
This is not a newly made decision, but it is one I am feeling an increasing urgency about lately. There seem to be far too many people recently that require some stompy boots and well chosen Russ quotes, and all I have to go on are reviews and google mined excerpts.
This is clearly not acceptable.
I could perhaps, just write off the people that are in dire need of stompy boots, but it isn’t just the instigators that are the problem. Sometimes the decisions and reactions of the people that are attempting to properly address the situation end up reinforcing the problems they obviously want to fix. As fun as it would be to play a special Russ themed game of BINGO with certain trolls, mostly I want a copy so I can brainstorm solutions to troll infestations that don’t involve doing the trolls’ work for them.
For example:
She wrote it, but...
As part of their current geekout about all things military and science fiction, Tor.com published a post by Liz Bourke on the inclusion and representation of women in Military Science Fiction.
...look what she wrote about.
One of the authors that was (briefly) mentioned (unfavorably) in the post showed up in the comments...and proceeded to turn the entire thread into a referendum on whether women should even be in the military. His argument being that women make militaries weaker and therefore no one should want to see them in militaries...including fictional militaries...in fictional worlds...in space...in the future.
...she shouldn’t have.
Bourke bandies words with him for a bit, and then bows out with: “You might want to think about stepping back for a little bit and let people with different opinions have a chance to talk before *insisting* they address your contention immediately.” Because, like all trolls, he was acting like the conversation was between him and everyone else, rather than a group discussion. On the grounds that he was the expert, of course.
...she isn’t really an artist.
Troll fails to take this reasonable bit of advice and continues to attempt to dominate and direct the conversation. Since his method consists mainly of ensuring that every third comment is by him (and I mean that quite literally, he made almost 30% of the comments in the thread) - and that each comment is full of illogical and contradictory flamewar bait - he is unsurprisingly, but sadly, remarkably successful in doing so.
...she’s an anomaly.
Troll finally manages to descend into outright bigotry (“Lt. Dyke” “lipstick lesbian” and “...[is out] but doesn’t flaunt it” were among the highlights) causing more people than just me, I’m sure, to email the moderators. Not only is the comment deleted and the Troll banned - but the comments are closed. Apparently, we’ve all had a fair chance to speak our minds, not just the Troll.
...but she had help.
Russ describes several methods of suppression of women's writing. They include:
Now, I must admit that I am perhaps too close to this particular incident and may not be as objective as others could be with regards to what transpired.
Bad Faith: Women’s writing is dismissed as too emotional, too angry, etc.
There is also the fact that Tor.com is a commercial site, not a community, and doesn’t have the same social obligations as say, well...Making Light.
Double Standard of Content: Men’s experiences - and the values and topics normally associated with men - are prioritized over women’s.
In addition, the moderators of the site have limited time and resources and yet were very quick to respond. When they did, they addressed Kratman and his disrespectful language directly and succinctly.
Isolation: Women’s writing (and one could argue, by extension, the pattern of responses to it) are cut off from history and tradition and consequently presented as anomalous.
I also believe that shutting down the comments entirely is immeasurably less harmful than allowing Kratman to continue to use their site to share his bigoted screeds.
Pollution of Agency: Women’s writing is dismissed by attacking the women herself; they are accused of being unstable, unnatural, uncaring, and, of course, immoral.
I would imagine, too, that they felt the understandable need to make some decisions quickly. It’s not as if the moderator had much time to decide how to phrase the announcement that the thread was closed.
Lack of Models: Women’s disappearance from the literary tradition (and surely, the trials they face as well?) means that each new generation believes they have no history to study and that they must reinvent the wheel each time.
, but...
, but...
, but...
Let’s not ignore the fact that a woman wrote something a man disagreed with, and then that same man was able to successfully suppress any conversation about her writing other than his own.
And, to a lesser extent, that the manner in which the conversation was irrevocably shut down by the hosting party put forth the argument that no women’s voices had been silenced at all; that, in fact, everyone had an equal chance at having their voices heard.
(and what, the comments section descended into chaos so quickly for no other reason than because the internet brings out the crazy?)
This isn’t just about Liz, who missed out on people treating her post with the respect it deserves, it’s also about the women who were discouraged from contributing their own words to the conversation. So, please, consider this post an invitation to discuss not just the fact that this happened, but - just as importantly - to also continue the conversation that Liz started:
"...I have a question or three for you. Is popular military SF more conservative in terms of gender and race than the rest of the genre? If it is, what factors make it that way?
And if it’s not, what have I been missing?"
This is not a newly made decision, but it is one I am feeling an increasing urgency about lately. There seem to be far too many people recently that require some stompy boots and well chosen Russ quotes, and all I have to go on are reviews and google mined excerpts.
This is clearly not acceptable.
I could perhaps, just write off the people that are in dire need of stompy boots, but it isn’t just the instigators that are the problem. Sometimes the decisions and reactions of the people that are attempting to properly address the situation end up reinforcing the problems they obviously want to fix. As fun as it would be to play a special Russ themed game of BINGO with certain trolls, mostly I want a copy so I can brainstorm solutions to troll infestations that don’t involve doing the trolls’ work for them.
For example:
She wrote it, but...
As part of their current geekout about all things military and science fiction, Tor.com published a post by Liz Bourke on the inclusion and representation of women in Military Science Fiction.
...look what she wrote about.
One of the authors that was (briefly) mentioned (unfavorably) in the post showed up in the comments...and proceeded to turn the entire thread into a referendum on whether women should even be in the military. His argument being that women make militaries weaker and therefore no one should want to see them in militaries...including fictional militaries...in fictional worlds...in space...in the future.
...she shouldn’t have.
Bourke bandies words with him for a bit, and then bows out with: “You might want to think about stepping back for a little bit and let people with different opinions have a chance to talk before *insisting* they address your contention immediately.” Because, like all trolls, he was acting like the conversation was between him and everyone else, rather than a group discussion. On the grounds that he was the expert, of course.
...she isn’t really an artist.
Troll fails to take this reasonable bit of advice and continues to attempt to dominate and direct the conversation. Since his method consists mainly of ensuring that every third comment is by him (and I mean that quite literally, he made almost 30% of the comments in the thread) - and that each comment is full of illogical and contradictory flamewar bait - he is unsurprisingly, but sadly, remarkably successful in doing so.
...she’s an anomaly.
Troll finally manages to descend into outright bigotry (“Lt. Dyke” “lipstick lesbian” and “...[is out] but doesn’t flaunt it” were among the highlights) causing more people than just me, I’m sure, to email the moderators. Not only is the comment deleted and the Troll banned - but the comments are closed. Apparently, we’ve all had a fair chance to speak our minds, not just the Troll.
...but she had help.
Russ describes several methods of suppression of women's writing. They include:
Now, I must admit that I am perhaps too close to this particular incident and may not be as objective as others could be with regards to what transpired.
Bad Faith: Women’s writing is dismissed as too emotional, too angry, etc.
There is also the fact that Tor.com is a commercial site, not a community, and doesn’t have the same social obligations as say, well...Making Light.
Double Standard of Content: Men’s experiences - and the values and topics normally associated with men - are prioritized over women’s.
In addition, the moderators of the site have limited time and resources and yet were very quick to respond. When they did, they addressed Kratman and his disrespectful language directly and succinctly.
Isolation: Women’s writing (and one could argue, by extension, the pattern of responses to it) are cut off from history and tradition and consequently presented as anomalous.
I also believe that shutting down the comments entirely is immeasurably less harmful than allowing Kratman to continue to use their site to share his bigoted screeds.
Pollution of Agency: Women’s writing is dismissed by attacking the women herself; they are accused of being unstable, unnatural, uncaring, and, of course, immoral.
I would imagine, too, that they felt the understandable need to make some decisions quickly. It’s not as if the moderator had much time to decide how to phrase the announcement that the thread was closed.
Lack of Models: Women’s disappearance from the literary tradition (and surely, the trials they face as well?) means that each new generation believes they have no history to study and that they must reinvent the wheel each time.
, but...
, but...
, but...
Let’s not ignore the fact that a woman wrote something a man disagreed with, and then that same man was able to successfully suppress any conversation about her writing other than his own.
And, to a lesser extent, that the manner in which the conversation was irrevocably shut down by the hosting party put forth the argument that no women’s voices had been silenced at all; that, in fact, everyone had an equal chance at having their voices heard.
(and what, the comments section descended into chaos so quickly for no other reason than because the internet brings out the crazy?)
This isn’t just about Liz, who missed out on people treating her post with the respect it deserves, it’s also about the women who were discouraged from contributing their own words to the conversation. So, please, consider this post an invitation to discuss not just the fact that this happened, but - just as importantly - to also continue the conversation that Liz started:
"...I have a question or three for you. Is popular military SF more conservative in terms of gender and race than the rest of the genre? If it is, what factors make it that way?
And if it’s not, what have I been missing?"
- Mood:
hungry

Comments
As far as being too close...I will note that two of the writers talked about in your article (which, one could argue, made them too close to that matter, yes?) felt that responding was the perfectly rational thing to do.
(Granted, one of the two was clearly wrong about the rational part, but still...)
I sort of feel I've said all there is: I mean, what else can one say? Apart from "women are people too" and "patriarchy limits imagination" and give me more girls blowing shit up ALREADY...
THIS.
Like, can I be allowed not to give a shit for a second if everyone in the world thinks its plausible? I want more girls blowing shit up. Just because.
Another point, which I mentioned in Liz's blog, is that chest-beater troglodytes of the sort who writes "military SF" invariably turn out to have never seen direct action (short of D&D or WoW). They also are (or choose to be) ignorant of history and they always portray war as containment of clueless barbarians who will benefit from the firm hand of an alpha race.
On the sexual orientation side, armies of male lovers were the cores of several armies, most notably the Theban Holy Brigade (Hieros Lochos) that defeated even the Spartans, themselves often fighting in lover-pair units.
On the female representation side, resistance armies fighting against foreign aggressors were full of women (high-ranking ones too: Boudicca, the Truong sisters, Lakshmi Bai...) at all times and places, from Nazi-occupied Greece to Vietnam.
As for "rape genes" or "rape hormones" that make men incapable of control (thereby necessitating burqas, scheitels and other gendered sex-segregation techniques that treat women as unruly furniture), his biology is worse than his history, if that's possible.
"resistance armies fighting against foreign aggressors were full of women"
yeah...that's...his comments on why armies should not have women in them aren't just full of sexism fail, they are chock full of racism - and the assumption that any military worth noting will be an imperialist one.
I'm not a writer of military sf or, by-and-large, a reader of it. But the debate that
May I friend you, please?
I'm not a reader of milscifi either, but one of the things reading hawkwing_lb's article made me realize is that part of why I don't is because I had sorta assumed it was *all* being written by the extreme asshole contingent. I was rather not happy that the discussion and recs (and not recs) were shouted down in favor of, well, nonsense really - because it's not just an interesting discussion it's a useful one as a reader!
I can't tell if certain peoples simply don't realize that preventing this discussion keeps people like me from being readers - or if they would rather that be the case. (I suspect it depends on which persons we are talking about.)
I used to enjoy milsf in my teens and 20s -- the Dorsai stories were fun and well-written and I loved Elizabeth Moon -- and then there were the thoughtful books by Joe Haldeman (who i agreed with) and Heinlein (who, politically, is not for me, but who I love anyway). And I still read and enjoy Tanya Huff's Valor series. But my feeling, too, is that as an area it's predominantly filled with the assholes or at least with the Right and their agenda. Which is a huge shame, because there is so much that can be explored and said with those themes. But the dominant mode is Conservative and elitist and colonialist and repressive right now. It drives me mildly nuts when milsf fans accuse fantasy of being conservative and reactionary, because so much fantasy, moreover, is the exact opposite: subversive, critical, radical and questioning.